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E2 and yo-yo's (Read 3836 times)
Oct 17th, 2006 at 8:10pm
cralmar6   Ex Member

 
I am having difficulty with the second half of the yo-yo. My e2 just won't return. I am set up for radical turns and moderate wind. Anything else i should know or be doing?
 
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Reply #1 - Oct 17th, 2006 at 8:56pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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Hi cralmar6. i find to get out of a yo-yo, I quickly give it slack almost as if you try to get it to fall over into a backflip, without the snap. once you give it slack, then just pull both hands for the unroll.

another way to return from a yo-yo is do a pancake(looks great about 5 foot off the deck), then pull both hands to unroll -that is the fruit-roll-up.

can you give a little more detail on your yo-yos and how you attempt to unroll/return?

hope that helps.
cheers
Dean
 
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Reply #2 - Oct 17th, 2006 at 9:03pm
Matthew_McGee   Ex Member

 
Quote:
I am having difficulty with the second half of the yo-yo. My e2 just won't return. I am set up for radical turns and moderate wind. Anything else i should know or be doing?



Practice?


Wink Grin


But seriously, if you're getting the first half of the move, then the second is just an even pull to unwrap the kite.  Or do you mean a flic-flac?


Matthew
 
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Reply #3 - Oct 18th, 2006 at 4:34pm
cralmar6   Ex Member

 
thanx for the answers (i can't try it yet) but i go into one by pancacking hard and give a lot of slack at the top of the window. It goesinto it all the way but when i try to jerk it back over (wrong term but it'll do) all it does is drop straight down about two feet then climb again.

     No not a flic flac, but that is how i start


 
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Reply #4 - Oct 18th, 2006 at 6:28pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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If I understand correctly, you are trying to get into a yo-yo from a pancake.

Try to rock the kite back more first before you tug with both hands evenly. Give slack to let it rock so the noes points more away from you, THen pull/sweep both hands evenly ( you may need to walk back a step or so, wind speed depending ).


Then the kite rocks first, the pull will introduce more momentum on the roll back into flying position (back out of the yo-yo for your return).

hope that helps.
cheers,
Dean
 
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Reply #5 - Oct 19th, 2006 at 2:46pm
Samba   Ex Member

 
I am not clear where your problem is exactly but radical is not necessarily the right setting for what you are trying. The term is sometimes a bit misleading and the middle or inverse works often better for me.
 
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Reply #6 - Nov 1st, 2006 at 4:09pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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Has anyone ever installed yo-yo stoppers on the E2?

I was flying Jen's the other day and WOW, it's so fun! The E2 is really easy to get into a backflip and it goes into a yo-yo with just a step or so forward, wow.

I did a few yo-yos with it, but found I could not really control it the greatest while rolled up.

Yo-Yo stoppers on my Qpro Standard Blue makes is GREAT and easy to fly around while rolled up, even other tricks with the roll up still in !!


Has anyone ever installed stoppers on the E2?
Pictures?

cheers,
Dean


 
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Reply #7 - Nov 1st, 2006 at 5:12pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

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Dean,
Not yet, but I'm going to the very weekend I get it-Thank's for the thought.

Jim
 
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Reply #8 - Nov 1st, 2006 at 6:12pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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Hey Jim, great stuff, that would be great, please keep me updated on this if you have a moment.

So, since there is no yo-yo stopper holes in the leading edge material ( that I know of ) on the E2, are you going to punch in your own holes?

Are you going to use the Qpro method of attaching yo-yo stoppers? -- Seems like a great method to me. You don't need to take anything apart to install or uninstall them, they are easy to change out etc.... and I'm sure most have APA fittings around to use!


Thanks Jim, I look forward in hearing from you on this.

cheers,
Dean
 
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Reply #9 - Nov 1st, 2006 at 6:30pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

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Dean,

I shall measure the position of the yo stoppers on the STD (in relation to the percent down from the nose to the end of the leading edge) and since I don't have a punch will probably stick a needle through the LE fabric and take a small drill bit and run it through from both sides.  I'll then take a YO -Yo kit and install just the fitting-I have one set left right now.

I'm going to pick up some more fittings from Prism because I have a couple Lix's and a couple of off brand kites that could use some stoppers.

That should work.  Anybody got any better ideas (without buying a punch), come on down!

Jim
 
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Reply #10 - Nov 1st, 2006 at 6:37pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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Jim, sounds good to me. Short of buying a punch, a drill is a good idea on high rpm.


Looking forward to your progress on this!

cheers,
Dean
 
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Reply #11 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 11:42am
lewis7558   Ex Member

 
Jim, when you add your stoppers, it may not be a percentage of the LE, but actually line up with the normal tow point of the bridle.  Just a thought.
 
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Reply #12 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 12:01pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

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Tim,
How do you mean?

Do I follow you to find out the height of the bridle 'on the mark' and transfer that to the same level on the leading edge?

Is that how the QPRO is done?- I should get a kite in here and check that out.  If that's what you're talking about, it would make sense to me. ???

Jim
 
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Reply #13 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 3:22pm
lewis7558   Ex Member

 
On some of my kites, the tow point is closer to the spine, on the QP the tow points is far outboard.  If you tension the bridle and extend a line through to the LE, I'm pretty sure the tow point and stopper line up.  Point being, if you put the stoppers too high (toward the nose) then you might have difficulty catching them and the kite will be unstable to control/very sensitive.  If you put them too low (toward the tips), then you'll be below the center of gravity and the kite will want to back flip when it's rolled up.  Still confusing?
 
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Reply #14 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 4:09pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

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Tim,
Still confused, but it's probably that I haven't slept in 28 hours. ???

Thanks for your patience.  The thing about outboard and inboard doesn't quite register but a straight line between the tow points does.  I will measure the standard at default and go from there If it's a match then I will do the same on any kites that I install the fittings on.

Thanks again,
confused IANS member
 
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Reply #15 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 4:51pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

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Tim,

Still confused. ???

The hypothesis failed.

Set up the Std with fittings installed on Mark's mark, with bridle on default, and the installed fittings were about double the distance between the lower spreaders and the tow point.

I suppose I could use that premise when installling on the E2 and Lix's?

I'm not thinking so because the lix's tow point is way higher than the pro's and I don't have the E2 yet so I can't refer to that.

Any ideas out there?

Jim
 
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Reply #16 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:07pm
lewis7558   Ex Member

 
Okay, it's really hard to explain without pictures. (Dean! Your presence is requested!)  But I'm going to stick with my center of gravity theory.
 
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Reply #17 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:15pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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hey guys!


Quote:
If you put them too low (toward the tips), then you'll be below the center of gravity and the kite will want to back flip when it's rolled up.



That is a sound way to look at it.






.... this makes sense to me.. but the question is - Does the percent from the lower tow point to tip match with the E2 from the Qpro, and from the upper tow point to the nose match with the E2 from the Qpro?


Quote:
I shall measure the position of the yo stoppers on the STD (in relation to the percent down from the nose to the end of the leading edge)




cheers,
Dean
 
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Reply #18 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:20pm
lewis7558   Ex Member

 
Okay, this was driving me nuts, so I pulled out the QP and assembled it in the living room (the wife is currently heckling me because I'm blocking the TV), anyway I've made some crude measurements.

The CG is about 1 inch below the "Q" in the Quantum Pro name.
The stoppers, if you were to draw a line between them, would cross at the "M" in Quantum Pro.

So it appears the proper setting for the stoppers would be above the CG at 25% of the distance from the CG to the nose.
In other words, the distance from the CG to the nose is 20-inches, and the stoppers are 5 inches above the CG.

Okay, the commercial is over so I have to move my kite now.
 
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Reply #19 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:26pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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Just another note or two:


I've heard of using 'a temporary' yo yo stopper to find the best place to put the Yo-Yo stoppers on a kite that does not come with yo-yo stoppers from the workshop!


From what I understand a good place to start testing/tuning the E2 with stoppers is 2/5  down the leading edge from the nose.


I've read about using these to 'clamp' on temporarily to the leading edge to fine tune.

...



THEN make the holes in the leading edge material once you're happy with the setting.

Adjust the clamps maybe 1/8 inch at a time the same length on both sides of course.


What do you guys think??


hope that helps.
cheers,
dean
 
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Reply #20 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:32pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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Quote:
The CG is about 1 inch below the "Q" in the Quantum Pro name.
The stoppers, if you were to draw a line between them, would cross at the "M" in Quantum Pro.


Tim, neat stuff... An issue that may exist here is that maybe the name/lettering on the Qpro's don't have the same placement on all of them.

Also, this method may get you in trouble if there is a really good movie or show on TV. Wink



cheers,
Dean
 
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Reply #21 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:34pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

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Hey guys!

You think it's driving you crazy?

I have four prisms set up in the living room now.(the wife isn't home form work yet so I gotta hurry)

STD, SUL, Lix and Proph.

We know where the fittings go on the pros. ( Mark provided us that)   Just looking at the Pros it seems the yo yo's are installed just inboard of the towpoints.  If I eyeball the proph and lix it seems that that would work, or at least look right, comparing it to an off brand tricker I flew a coupla weekends ago.

How do we determine the C/G on a kite, anyway?

I've had two of the bottled variety and I seem to be more confused.  The bottled variety seems to have a lower C/G, but I'm not able to determine where that is?

HELP!

Jim

PS Dean,

Nice photo op.  I don't suppose the clamp would change the C/G would it?  Oops! There's the wife - I gotta run now and clean up this $%@!$$!!
 
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Reply #22 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:38pm
lewis7558   Ex Member

 
Okay, a simple trick to find the CG; put you fingers on the spine and slowly slide your hands together.  Where they meet is the CG.  Best not to have sticky fingers when doing this. (Please don't ask my type the science.)

Oh, here's a picture I just made that should describe my percentage theorem.

...
 
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Reply #23 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:38pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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Tim:
another comment...
Quote:
So it appears the proper setting for the stoppers would be above the CG at 25% of the distance from the CG to the nose.



I think that you are on to something here regarding the CG of the kite and the yo-yo placement for sure, I agree, but it will be different on the E2 I would think.

A general rule from what I hear is 2/5ths down the leading edge from the nose, and then testing using the clamp.

Ok, you guys are making me want to get an E2 to try these theories out. Maybe I can get a loan of Jade's E2 for this...?! I think she'd want some exact numbers before I start drilling/punching holes in her E2.... I want to test it with the clamp idea first though.

PS Mark would most likely have the answers for this.



hope this helps guys.
cheers,
Dean
 
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Reply #24 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:42pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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Tim - nice, now I understand where you are coming from!!

Using the clamps/clips would also help to nail the exact location - by trying yo-yo's at, for example, 25% above the CG like in this image!!


cheers,
Dean
 
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Reply #25 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:43pm
lewis7558   Ex Member

 
Oh, the measurements in the picture aren't to scale.

And, Dean, great idea for temporary test stoppers!  Maybe just straighten the top of the clips so they aren't curved and catch the string.
 
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Reply #26 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:44pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

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Quote:
Nice photo op.  I don't suppose the clamp would change the C/G would it?





Jim, yes the clamp was totally change the C.G. as this would only be used to find the position on the sail where the lines would 'catch' on the way over the kite/sail while entering the yo-yo.


cheers,
Dean

 
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Reply #27 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 5:53pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

*****
 
Okay,

This is it !!  I'm getting ready to start the third. I got the kites out of the house and maybe she won't go to the garage tonite-just maybe.

Dean,

I think it's justified now for you to offer Jade's kite as a sort of sacrifice, for scientific purposes only.  After all, Tim internationalized IANS purely for righteous reasons and, you know, it's the least you guys could do!  As for the clamps - I think that qualifies as Newton-phooey.  Scientifically speaking, the CG would have to be changed significantly and I don't think you could unroll from the flare configuration.

That's my analysis and I think we're back to square 1 with this topic.  Where's Mark? Matt??- anybody??

Tim,

Nice lines on the pic-thay look a little wavy though.

Jim 8)
 
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Reply #28 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 6:10pm
lewis7558   Ex Member

 
Jim, do you mean the red wavy lines? haha
 
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Reply #29 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 7:56pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

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Tim,
Yeah the red wavie's and the yellow ones on your pix.

Hey look, Guys,  I'm old- pretty much blind and I started # 4.  I'm still freakin' about this thing called LOv - no-no I mean C/G.

I need to sleep. I have a feelin' that when I awake all these hard quest8ions will be answered and I  will know exactly where to place the stoppers........ lf not ?  I hear that suicide is painless -quote from a movie named 'Mash'- way too long ago for all you young folk to remember, but pretty much significant in my long and lonely existence.  Aaaaa h - the sound of surf-gentle six MPH -breezes- a long way from bumpy winds and does any one know where Toto went? aaaaahhhhh-  I hear the Katy dids-does - will do?   Sorry,

jb
 
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Reply #30 - Nov 3rd, 2006 at 4:22am

groundeffect   Ex Member

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I've heard that 21inchs down from the nose is a good starting number on the E2. ( That would be 7inchs down from the bottom of the APA fitting on the upper spreader. )

Guys, maybe we should put say 3 holes in the leading edge material on each side.

The Qpro has 5-6 holes, some for safety stoppers of course, as  you know, but the upper hole for the actual Stopper.


So we can test and place the stopper in the best location. And if we are at the top, maybe the bottom holes can be used for safety stoppers.



Jim,  I hope you're still sleeping at this time!
Flying a kite half a sleep is most likely the same as flying with a few cans of beers in you.... I think it's against the law in the kite world Wink

cheers,
Dean
 
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Reply #31 - Nov 3rd, 2006 at 1:30pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

*****
 
Dean,

Sleep IS good!  The world is a little clearer now.  Do I take it that Jen's kite is being sacrificed by placing holes in it as I type?

Then by the time I get the E2 I will have all the answers and you, my friend, will have done all the testing and such.  I can't think of a better flier to follow through yo-yo stopper placement R&D.

Are bottles of beer against the law in kite land?  I don't think so, because they have a lower center of gravity than cans, don't they?

Peace,
Jim
 
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Reply #32 - Nov 3rd, 2006 at 2:32pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

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Guys, (and Jen)

That first cup of Java now has my mind functioning better.  I have come up with a critique of last nite's ramblings.

Tim,
(I think you already know this) C/G has nothing to do with this.  However, your comments about too high and too low are the most important caviats here.

Upon further revue, (the wife's at work) and checking out all three Pros with stoppers installed, I have come to the conclusion that on the first knot closest to the kite, the stoppers are about an inch inboard of the tow point, moving out the knot changes that to a little more outboard than an inch. (not enough to be relevent tho')

On the standard, an eyeballing measurement puts the stopper about six inches below the upper apa fitting. So your seven inches is probably in the ball park, Dean.

My final theorem is this:  The stopper shouldn't be too high for sensitivity nor too low for stability and should be located somewhere near the tow point so that it will catch the lines.

Voila!!

What do you think? Tongue

Jim Grin

PS Dean, I really don't think you should fly Jen's E2 with the  paper clamps installed.  (you won't anyway will you? Y'all were just messin' with an old sleep deprived man, huh?)
 
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Reply #33 - Nov 4th, 2006 at 7:41pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

*****
 
Hey guys:

Quote:
PS Dean, I really don't think you should fly Jen's E2 with the  paper clamps installed.  (you won't anyway will you? Y'all were just messin' with an old sleep deprived man, huh?)


Ah,... well... we've not been messing with ya Jim. We did some tests today with Jen's E2 and the temp paper clamps !!!!!




Quote:
Tim,
(I think you already know this) C/G has nothing to do with this.  However, your comments about too high and too low are the most important caviats here.



Not sure about that regarding the CG -  how about the ability to steer, will CG effect this?




Quote:
On the standard, an eyeballing measurement puts the stopper about six inches below the upper apa fitting. So your seven inches is probably in the ball park, Dean.

See details below on this:





E2 Testing for yo-yo Stopper Measurement/Mark:
================================================
Well, today, it was a fairly early morning, the sun was out, the winds were awesome! I mentioned this thread to Jen, and she said she was up for testing these ideas on her E2!!! She had agreed to sacrifice the use of her E2 for the stake of this thread and the quest for finding a good yo-yo stopper placement for the Prism E2 ( Thanks Jen !!! )

NOTE: The E2 is able to do yo-yo pretty easily, but without stoppers it's difficult to steer, control and do other tricks while rolled up (with any kite).





So, we headed to Bowering Park (local park with big grass areas and empty soccer fields!). The soccer field was empty, so we decided to go there for the testing - as potential falling paper clamps from 65feet with kids running around in the major park area would not be good.

Jim, note in the pictures below I printed out the last comments for this thread, just to have on hand at the field for review and make notes on. (see pic below).




So, I've heard about placement at 7inch below the upper APA fitting. We started our testing in this area, at 6.5inch.







The setup:

1. One Prism E2 (ICE).
2. Two small sized paper Clamps.
3. Prism Forum thread print outs on hand.
4. Two sections of cloth rag for protecting the sail from the metal clamps.





Tests:
--------


6.5
-------------------------------------
This was the first test at 6.5 inches below the upper APA fittings.

The first few yo-yo attempts by me were not great, as I'm used to flying the Qpro. So, after a little warm up flights we had a few yo-yos going!

This setting seemed to work pretty well. The clamps were down far enough so the lines could catch without problems. Once the lines were caught, I was able to steer it around the window with good control.

It seems using the clamps made the kite a little nose heavy which seemed to make it harder to do get the roll up. So Jen and I took a few turns manually rolling up on the ground and then hand launching it to get into the air. Once in flight we just observed its control and steering ability. At this setting it seemed to turn slow in comparison to the default factory bridle settings, but still able to control and steer VS no stoppers at all !!



Successful Lazy Susans were completed on each of the following settings while rolled up, then unrolling into a Fade.



5.5 inches below the upper APA fitting
-------------------------------------
We jumped up the leading edge one inch to 5.5inchs down from the APA fittings. Still seemed ok to catch the lines, but obviously the 6.5 inches would provide more room for catching the lines by nature.

Again, good control once on the lines where caught ( we did some rolled hand launches on this setting as well ), but seemed to turn slower at this setting then the 6.5 inch setting. hmm...??



7.5 inches below the upper APA fitting
-------------------------------------

We found this setting the best of the three - great control once caught and turning seemed to be the faster of the three settings, but not by much.





NOTE:
1. Slack management is important with yo-yo attempts.
You have to be able to tension the lines just as the kite turns nose towards you while on the way back to 'flying position', this will help to get the lines right on the stoppers and not over shoot.

2. Also, a twist in the lines (typically we used 1-3 twists in the line) helps control the lines to catch.

3. The clamps did seem to throw the overall feel of the kite off a little, as these are metal paper clamps, nothing like an APA fitting!




Here are some pictures of our testing today:
============================================



Preping the E2
...

...




The Test - Paper Clamps, there are metal.

...


Jim - it's your notes! and a few new ones!
...
...


...
...


Measuring for the first test:

...
...


Installing the test clamps. Note the cloths sections added to
protection the sail.
...
...



Testing!
...



Pulling a Lazy Susan while rolled up! These test clamps are working!
...


Ok, so we did some othe tricks while testing Smiley I think
I was setting up for an axle here.
...


...



Jen going into the backflip to yo-yo with the E2!
...


close up of the test clamp
...


Note that after the testing was complete, a little flying around with the test clamps on shows us why Prism does NOT use these 'test yo-yo stoppers'! - They fell apart! Smiley
...


============================================


In conclusion:
--------------

I'd recommend the main stopper at about 6.5 or 7.5, then add a few safety stoppers at 8.5 and 9.5 down from the upper APA fitting.

NOTE: Jen still needs to be convinced a little more before we break out the hole punch on her E2 Wink   But, I think we both agree that we came out with some pretty good results here.




Hope that helps guys !!!!!! - questions/comments welcome here!!!!




The field for the testing:
...




A random picture in the park - the park crew have gathered
all the picnic tables for the fall, in prep for the snow this winter.
...


Jen & I:
...

Cheers,
Dean
 
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Reply #34 - Nov 4th, 2006 at 7:56pm

groundeffect   Ex Member

*****
 





Some questions:

1. Which position is the best for the most accurate steering?

2. At which mark on the LE provides the best turn rate? --- seems to be the further down the faster
the turn rate ?!


questions and comments welcome here guys.


cheers,
Dean

 
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Reply #35 - Nov 4th, 2006 at 10:26pm
cralmar6   Ex Member

 
WOW!  I asked one little question and now i am about to punch holes in my E2! (i haven't sent it to prism for repairs yet because of this thread and tape is working ok for now). I finally got a yo-yo because of this (TY). I tried clips at 7" and found the same problem of slow response so i took one wieght off my big bang and added it to the bottom of the spine and it helped but was too heavy. any suggestions on a proper weight and way to attach?
 
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Reply #36 - Nov 4th, 2006 at 11:35pm

kantaxel   Ex Member

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Dean and cralmar6,

Wow, I don't believe you guys tried it. My hat's off to all three of you!

My comment about c/g to Tim was more pointed to the stoppers changing center of gravity not the fact that too low would affect flying in a roll up.  I think I agreed with him on that point, but maybe I was not being too clear.

Dean,
Nice pictures, again.  What a pretty sight seein' those clamps on the leading edge.  I think that as long as the yo's yo's installed at 7" or so are not more than an inch inboard of the tow points that is probably where I will install them. I agree  wholeheartedly with your report about farther down will give a quicker turn, but again too far down would cause the kite to not act properly in a roll up, (Thanks Tim)

I don't agree that the kite's center of gravity can be ascertained by finding the middle of the spine, because I think that c/gravity is a big factor when they're being designed, and one of the advantages of adding weight that the QPROS has is that you can change that balance based on where you put it.

What a great experiment!  I bet it was real interesting trying to fly with them clamps on the leading edge.  Not only did it change the c/g-balance but it also had to have a negative affect on windflow over the sail.  Again my hats off to all three of you, especially Jen for taking the risk!!

Thanks,
Jim Grin
 
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Reply #37 - Nov 5th, 2006 at 3:41am

groundeffect   Ex Member

*****
 
Hey guys.



cralmar6: Not sure about weights on the E2, maybe someone else can comment on this one.


Quote:
What a great experiment!  I bet it was real interesting trying to fly with them clamps on the leading edge.  Not only did it change the c/g-balance but it also had to have a negative affect on windflow over the sail.  Again my hats off to all three of you, especially Jen for taking the risk!!



Jim, it totally was a great experiment! Jen and I learned a bunch by doing this. Indeed !! The airflow over the sail was changed as a result of the test clamps, it also changed the CG, and in the middle of all of this we were testing its ability to steer with control while rolled up.

Also note that we purposed had some flights right after the testing, as to feel the kite on factory settings again.


Again many thanks to Jen for putting up the E2 for testing !!

NOTE: No E2 was harmed on this experiment!




cheers,
Dean

 
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Reply #38 - Nov 5th, 2006 at 10:23am

groundeffect   Ex Member

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Went we back to the same field again today, no more testing, just practise on other maneuvers, but again, seen more picnic tables about, being stacked and stored for the winter.

...

cheers,
Dean
 
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Reply #39 - Nov 5th, 2006 at 5:31pm
Jade   Ex Member

 
If somebody actually punches holes in their sail to install yo yo stoppers, can you please let me know if there are any negative side effects? I am not comfortable allowing Dean to break out the hole punch just yet.  Wink Thanks

                                       Jen
 
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